if we don't deal with the debt ceiling, i mean, this is a situation where america's borrowing costs could rise for decades 20 come, correct? >> yes. and it just -- it makes us look foolish. and amateurish. and i can't see how anyone could be confident in our country, and most particularly in our political leaders, if we default on our debt. and we won't default. don't get me wrong. i mean, but even if it's delayed by a week or two weeks, it just -- it just looks like we are dysfunctional, which we are. >> but you have a situation where both sides have dug in because on principle they both think that they are right. the one side, the republicans, thinking that they've already dealt with higher taxes, and now it's time to start looking at cuts. you have the democrats digging in because they think there needs to be more taxes that come along with this. what should happen in order to get those two sides to compromise? because that's the real sticking point. they think compromise is anathema. >> well, it just surprises me on both sides. we have a fiscal problem. and for one party to think that